Talk:Château de Montségur

history of the castle

The current castle was made as a garnison castle on the border with the kingdom of Aragon after the area became a part of the kingdom of France. There should be a mention of this in the history section somewhere, what do you think? Other similar castles include Queribus or Peyrepertuse.

Montsegur and Queribus castles have been built after the Cathars fall and used these places. When the cathars were there the castle might had been very different ( they lived there with women, religious people, maybe children?) ... After this, the castles have only been built for military garisons.

The kingdom of Aragon had sided with the Cathars and the new castles were (re)built to enforce the border after the treaty of Corbeil.

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The article says that the present Castle of Montsegur, or Montsegur 3, bears no relation to the Cathar building it was built over. Maybe. But that doesn't account for the fact that as castles go its a very wierd construction, medieval or not. It actually seems to violate every law of Medieval defense - only one tower, main gate huge & unfortified. Why is this? Can anyone explain? ThePeg 21:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

While I haven't taken the time it add to this article, the definitive book Massacre at Montsegur by Zoe Oldenbourg asserts that portions of the existing building do date back to Cathar times, and discusses the architectural features in detail. Akradecki 22:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The castle built subsequently at Montségur had a different purpose than the castle given additional fortification in the 1200s - i.e., it was not a "nest of rebellion" and the South was no longer a separately self-ruled entity. It can be asserted positively that the current ruin does indeed contain NO TRACES whatsoever of the original Cathar castle.Almirena 04:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello Almerina. A surprise to find you here! :-) I get the hunch you really aren't a big fan of the Cathars at all. ;-). What's confusing about this castle is that if you go there, and I have, the museum in the town provides a reconstruction of what it probably looked like when the Cathars were in it. Its basic layout is like the present building but it has huge amounts of wooden construction on it too eg defensive towers etc. Now, we know that the original Cathar castle was torn down once the castle fell, as was customary in those days when an enemy stronghold was taken (the same thing happened to Carcasonne, Beziers, Toulouse etc).In THAT sense there is nothing of the original castle left. What is not clear is whether the present rebuilt castle, which is also pretty dilapidated, was built on completely fresh lines or whether it was built upon the foundations of the old one. Going up there one can see from the topography of the Pog its built on there aren't many ways of constructing a castle there. It has to be the strange, wobbly triangular shape to work. As far as I know - and I may be very wrong - the rebuilt walls and castles of Carcasonne were virtual repros of the old buildings. I suppose what I'm saying is although the present castle isn't the Cathar castle its not clear how much of an idea of how the old Cathar castle would have been like we get from it. There is evidence of outer battlements but there is no suggestion that the building which stands (which probably constituted the inner defences) is built on alternative foundations as far as I know. Whatever the case its a haunting experience being up on that Pog. When I was there a mist came down and surrounded it completely, making it impossible to see out. Also its very small. There were several hundred people up there during the siege. I know people were smaller then but its still very claustrophobic. Whatever the truth about the castle its worth a visit. Whoever chose it as a defensive position chose well. The Pog is extraordinary and one of the people I was with commented that it doesn't fit with any of the other mountains around it. The one thing it reminded me of was the Devil's Tower in Close Encounters Of The Third Kind. It has that vibe. ThePeg 11:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like a magical and beautiful experience, ThePeg. There's no doubt that there are some intrinsically magnificent or effective structures or areas that can create a sense of wonder. You're to be envied for being able to visit the current castle.

Re the Cathars - I am interested in historical accuracy, and inevitably that means that while researching primary sources and discussions concerning them in articles and books by scholars of the Carolingian and early mediaeval period, I find also a great deal disseminated on the internet which gives a false impression of the Cathars (among other groups similarly mythologised in modern re-telling). While studying Manichaeism and the strong likelihood that its element of dualism profoundly influenced the form of Catharism so prevalent in the Languedoc, I became interested in the history of the area and what the documents of the time might reveal about this fascinating period - especially given that the political and religious differences that fermented in the southern area of what's now France were the catalyst for such upheaval.

There is considerable reason according to the primary sources to discount an idea that the rebuilt castle was built in any sense to reproduce the destroyed castle. Of course, if you have any further information (primary sources) that give another view, I would be utterly delighted to view it. Please don't hesitate to let me know! Almirena

Thanks for this, Almerina... I hope to have another visit in a few weeks' time.

In fact I am not saying that the present castle is/was an attempt to REPRODUCE the old one. What I am asking is what the relationship to the old one the present one has. So far no-one seems to be able to say. We know the present one ISN'T the Cathar one, but as I was trying to explain, the Pog is such a weird piece of stone that you would be hard pressed to build a castle with a different configuration on it. All I am trying to establish is how near to the previous one it might be - ie what can we glean of from it about the original, if anything? Can we get a sense of what the original might have been like from what is there now? As above, no-one seems to be able to tell me. Either you get the pie-eyed view that we are walking in the building the Cathars fought and died in or we are walking in something completely different, which also doesn't seem right. That's the only point I am making...

I agree with you about the misrepresentation of the Cathars on the net. Indeed, not just the net! When I visited the Pog I was given a Tourist Information leaflet which actually asserted that the similarities between Montsegur and Macchu Picchu in South America were deliberate as the two cultures had links with each other (!?!). And this was in an OFFICIAL leaflet!!! The fact that South America hadn't even been DISCOVERED by Europeans at that time didn't seem to occur to anyone!

I would like NOT to believe it but there are strange configurations to even the SITES of the Cathar Castles, let alone their actual constructions. Whatever the case, they chose their sites well and almost all are on very particular pieces of volcanic rock which are almost inaccessible. ThePeg (talk) 23:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)